|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
BRIEFING WITH DEPT. OF INTELLIGENCE
DATE: JUNE 4, 1997
FROM: DR. MANUEL CEREIJO
Maybe for the tape we could just review that I am Colonel Roth from the
Department of Intelligence’s (DI) public Affairs Office. We are here to
do a background interview generally speaking on the topic of Cuba. It’s
a background briefing and any attribution would be for a senior defense
official and maybe we should just go around the room and you could state
your name:
My name is: Ana Montes
My name is: Steve Smith
My name is: Dr. Barry Ehrlich
My name is: Mark Fanjinas (spelling?)
AND XXX MY SOURCE
Colonel Roth:Ok, so what’s your interest?
Rabel: Well, a number of areas--but I was in Cuba this weekend and Bob
and I have been working on many issues, but specifically, on Cuba’s
capabilities on the area of biological warfare (“BW”) on whether they
have any capability in that arena or could rapidly develop such a
capability.
XXX: Specially in light of what they have been saying about us over the
last month which strikes us as very bizarre. They are offering us access
to their fields, access to crops____ and also offering access to
laboratories and I mean first of all it struck us completely out of left
field--when you saw it- I was in Burbank, and I said, wait until you see
this....and you know, why now? why this?--maybe that’s a good starting
point- I mean--- what has evolved as to why they are now accusing the US
of biological weapons?
Roth: This is not the first time. The history goes back to 1981. It
deals with Dengue Fever accusations-- unfounded. Frankly, we always
felt-- (again this is general sense of comparison) ---that their
presence in other parts of the world, supporting Angola... and
otherwise, really brought that and probably Conjunctivitis back to Cuba
and then conveniently claims were made that this was somehow a
biological warfare attack by the U.S. which was totally absurd. So this
is a continuing thing...
XXX: But they haven’t made anything recently?
Roth No. There hasn’t been any news about anything since that time
period until very recently until the State Dept. aircraft incident. So
everything has been sort of quite in that sense. So the accusations are
there and we kind of shake our heads whenever they are made---because
some of them are so bizarre ---you find with the case with the
infestation that is happening in the general region and not just Cuba.
But the State Dept. answered their questions.
XXX: But is there any particular reason why now? Is there anything that
you guys can look at and say this is the reason or that is the reason?
It’s been basically 14 years. I remember when the retired General
Wilhelm ? went to that Senator Defense Information trip in 1994 -- and
they were screaming about the US and and they cut him off...and said
that the Miami Cubans... and suddenly the conversation ended--- and that
appeared to me that they were lowering the temperature of the subject.
And suddenly you know, this comes out of nowhere.
DI It’s really hard to know...I can tell you from our standpoint..we
don’t see any any reason again from the standpoint of their perception
of “BW” or whatever, why this should come up at this time. We monitor
them, look at their country, and off course, are deeply interested in
their capabilities, but there is nothing out of the ordinary which seems
to have been the provocatour (if indeed, there is a reason that is the
genesis of this or the nexxus of it) but it may not be -- it may just be
a coincidence and maybe grabbed on to Castro for no reasons. Whether
they are well thought of or not is also possibly an opportunity--
coincidental with an aircraft flying over and having a problem with a
crop and 1 + 1 =2. And why not go back and bring this up again. Again
nothing that we can say.
XXXX: On the other side of the ledger, there have been over the last 20
years a proliferation of scientific institutes (Biotech Center,
Institute of Tropical Center, The Finley Institute, The Geographic
Institute + 10 others etc..) And I am told that even the institutions
have declared for BL/ 3 BL4 facility declarations which give them a
capability of .....
DI: Oh, you bet!. You don’t even necessarily need a BL 4 capability to
undertake that type of program......but it dosen’t hurt..and it
reflects..the fact is, just to get to the heart of it--what you said is
essentially totally correct about that their biotechnology industry in
many areas is equivalent (and certainly not across the whole spectrum--
but in many areas) equivalent to 1st world levels and they have some
projects that certainly reflect significant advanced potential and
certainly the Institute for Biotechnology in Havana is a good indicator
of their capabilty for research projects They claim for instance, they
are working on HIV, they produce vaccines, pharmaceuticals..
XXX: About 100 million dollars worth of exports?
DI: In fact, Castro favors, the biotech industry. He has personal
interest in it. So, from a standpoint unlike that of many other
countries we look at them from a 1st world capability- Cuba has all of
the necessary ingridients to accomplish a BW effort if they would choose
to do so. But, if that’s their intention---(which I can not discuss the
details relating to that), but if so, the infrastructure affords them
that potential.
XXX: Are there any indications of their intentions?
DI I can’t really go into that at all. Probably can’t give any more
details about that unfortunately.
XXX: When we talk to other people, in other places in the government,
they claim-- well, that the Cuban military does not do biological
training. You know, their gas masks are a disaster, they have not
replenished them which leads me to either one of two possiblities: a.)
There is no program. or b.) There is a program, but outside the
traditional military realm-- sort of a “dooms day”.
DI Certainly all that is possible. The one general statement that I
would make about biological intentions is that the very fact whether the
capability for physicial protection or medical protection exists or does
not exist, is not a primary requisite for an offense of capabilty, so,
it doesn’t necessarily (not just talking about Cuba but in the general
sense) that its not even-- depending on how one would choose to affect a
BW operation- you do not necessarily have to have your troops vaccinated
or protected because in many senses, BW would be looked-- and is looked
at- as less of a tactical capability and more of a strategic capability
to be delivered upon someone else’s territory rather than yours.
XXX: Has he--now he apparently said something recently that was somewhat
ambigous in this area-- (I have a head cold, I don’t know if I have some
personal BW--or clouding of the mind)...He recently made a statement
that the Miami Cubans had seized upon as an indicator that he’s got
something going----Is there anything that strikes a cord with you in the
last month or two?
DI Nothing that we’ve seen. We have seen the articles regarding the
accusations about “Germ weapons and missiles” and frankly we do not put
much credibility to that type of statement.
XXX: This was said by a formal Colonel?
DI Yes, and at this point it just doesn’t add up- and 2 and 2 doesn’t
make 4. And so we just don’t pay too much credibility to this.
XXX: Is there any public statement that he’s ever made that has caused
you any concern in this area?
DI Not really a public statement per se, no no. Our area of concern
relates to his general “unfriendliness towards the US and his interest
in biological (albeit)---and certainly civilan sector capabilities”
which would be our concerns and also his potentials. Whenever a leader
which such immense control takes a personal interest in an area that can
have that potential, then our antena is of course raised and we are
watching. Certainly, they are close to our borders and with the advanced
capabilities this is something that we watch, but then again, off
course, we watch many, many other countries that have this potential.
XXXX : Now they are a signatory to the BW _______
When I look at the active reports, the full? reports there is no mention
of . What is that an indicator of?
DI: Well, at this point I really wouldn’t like to try to read into the
State Department does--and a ____ _ _? So I really do do want to comment
on to why is there or not there.
DI: There are a lot of signatories that are mentioned that you probably
see that are mentioned that
XXXX : Yes, but there are some that are signatories that are mentioned
as having programs or in wonderfully lithical diplomatic language Egypt,
Taiwan,
Di: Yes, Syria, China.
XXX : But those are less of a pickle?
Di: Yes.
XXXX : Right. I mean, Egypt and Taiwan I thought were particularly ____?
Di Yes, they really are. I really can’t answer that in either in an
affirmative or negative why they were or were not included in that
section.
XXXX : I’ve got a couple of specific things that I’ve been thinking
about-- within the last 24 hours people have been telling me-- and
obviously, it is disturbing what I’ve been told because of the local of
the southern extreme of the United States and the access with which it
can reach us and --level of outrage, the point was there is a defector
who came here two or three years ago, he is a physician who worked at a
biotech center and claims that a toxin, (a para___ toxin) was being
developed with the aid of a Japanese company--- you’re nodding?
DI: I am familiar with the information, and really can’t comment on
that. We have looked at that closely and we have assessments but it gets
into areas that I really would not want to try to provide.
XXXX : Let me see if I can--would it be worthwhile for us to talk to
this guy?
DI: My sense is that the way we always look at intelligence is that if
you look at a single source, as such, it could be very misleading--
that’s why I can’t go on anything because it brings up textual
information and if we say that we agree-- that he is valuable or not
valuable- it brings up other information that I can’t go into which
would corroborate or not corroborate with saying. So, you’re on your
own!
XXX : Laughs, Ok., Well, I’ve also heard that there is a Naval Hospital
in Havana-- have your interests?
DI: Yes,-continually, we see again coming mostly from the so-called,
“free Cubans”-- a lot of information that comes out- I can’t
characterize any one bit of that information as plus or minus, but I
will say that classically most of the information that comes from that
sector is more based on a tidbit of information that then becomes
strapulated beyond what would be reasonable. It is very hard to find
anything that you can actually corroborate. You have a data point and
when you try to follow some of these data points they become simply
something that just goes into thin air. There is nothing to base it on.
XXXX : Is this because Cuba is such a difficult intelligence target or
is it because the information is almost always wrong?
DI: Oh no, no, I would not even characterize it either way, difficult or
not difficult or whatever. It’s just that the information that comes
from that sector doesn’t help us necessarily-- in terms of accessing if
Cuba has a capability or not. We’ve never seen were that’s been tied.
XXXX : Do you look for imports or parts of equipment.
DI: We watch everything.
XXX: Great. You have 3 - Flash-4 facility being one--- fermentors?
DI: Yes.
XXX : Large scale fermentors?
DI: Absolutely .
XXX : Right. Small to large.
DI: Very minor dual use.
XXX : And then everything biological is dual use--as someone pointed out
to me, if you look at nuclear, chemical and biological-- I mean, nuclear
there is a small part which is dual use and a larger part which is
military use- chemicals get a little more confusing- biological is
hopeless.
DI: Pretty much although there exists (again not solely related or not
related to Cuba with the Australian group) and they have been fairly
successful (and we have supported the Australian group quite a bit, the
US has) in trying to define that material that could lend itself to BW
programing. Interestingly, again this is just background on BW and not
Cuba, but pretty much when you look at it if you look at the genesis of
the BW programming, it is strictly an offensive program what you are
going to find is that -you are going to find an R&D effort dealing with
agents and pretty much when you’re looking at agents it becomes very
difficult to ascertain whether the program is going to actually split
off in a “Y” towards defensive or commercial sector vs. Strictly
offensive. But there are notes that exist-and the fact is that in the
early phase it is virtually impossible to discriminate between the two.
However, with the Australia group, you set certain limits as to the size
of fermenters for instance that would be construed as being beyond that
necessary for a normal pharmaceutical or commercial sector.
XXX : In kilograms or--
Di: No, liters (volumes)
XXX : What’s that 150?
Di: It keeps going back and forth and right now, 150 is a good number.
Which a piot is about 50 to 70 where he sort of grilling it up sort of
speak, getting ready to pour it into something to make it larger. And
that’s starting off at 150, but when you are in large scale productions,
what’s practical is about 1500 liters or so.--and that’s for a full
capability.
? But you wouldn’t need large scale capability.
? You don’t need it.
XXX : Right. But they have them.
DI: Yes. And so as a consequence something they might have is smaller
size fermentor. Which we would call pilot which could in fact lend
itself to the production of enough biological agents (mainly talking
about infectious agents right now, not toxins which are bi-products of
other organisms) but with infectious agents. You can also---you can
believe or not, grow biological agents in flasks and just have many,
many, many flasks-- and that can give you the capability of producing
enough agents, it doesn’t take a lot of organisms to cause infections
XXX: There are certain parts of organisms too.
DI: That is correct. There are literally--from a military standpoint- a
very effective military effort-the way we look at biological is that
first of all generally, (and again not bioterrorism or low intensive
conflict) but more military-- you try to look at an agent that is not
--because you are looking at hitting the individual causing the effect
and moving on. You do not want an epidemic. From a military standpoint
that becomes a logistical nightmare. That’s why Anthrax, botulin toxin
also sit on the top of anyone’s list.
XXX: What about BEE and things like that.
Di: Yeah, BEE again, that’s a little more difficult virus to grow up and
it takes more sophistication. But BEE certainly is a prom candidate and
any of the ______group viruses and Middle Eastern Bee.
XXX: Any about Rheumatic fever?
Di: Rheumatic fever viruses are more difficult---the futility has yet to
be demonstrated. You are working with not necessarily highly contagious
viruses because--- if they were..
XXX: We would be dead!
Di: ....the good news is that they would kill their host very rapidly
and not spread on. And plus they are not spread throughout the aerosol
or respiratory---for example you have a renal virus right now, probably
an upper respiratory virus...
XXX : I sure do.
Di: And you are more contagious- depending if you are in the incubation
period, how long have you had it?
XXX: I’m at the end of it.
DI: You are not in the incubation stage right now--you have Blue Cross
and Blue Shield?
But actually what you produce in the early or incubation stages are
called filmates and they are particles of sputum. It is a highly
contagious virus but of the most biological are not readily contagious.
If you wanted to try to get Anthrax you have to literally get down and
touch the patient and get right in their face.
XXX: Well that’s where military _______
DI: Well, again, it depends on the goals-- and if you want to start
certainly an epidemic, there might be some agents that you can pick up.
For the most part when you get into agents that cause epidemics they are
very hard to grow, they are hard to manage and to keep confined. So
generally, they are not picked because they are just to hard to work
with.
XXX: When you look at the various facilities, I’m assuming that the
Biotech and Genetic Engineering is on the top of your list of things to
look at and to watch. Are there others?
DI: Well we watch---there are more than a dozen or so key facilities and
we watch them. Absolutely. We watch the whole Cuba capability very
closely.
XXX: Is your work at the biotech center based on its large capacity, its
large numbers of people, its large fermenters and it being a flash 4
facility--is it that primarily that gets you nervous or is it the fact
that they have genetic engineering capabilities?
Di: Well, really, the first level of concern is with the technical
infrastructure and that would lend itself. The genetic engineering
portion, for the most, if you look at biological warfare in general, it
is area, that again, that we are watching, following, but we’ve accessed
that any country developing a BW capability first With what is familiar
to them Is classical- so genetic engineering is certainly something we
have our eye on cause we are always ready for intervention. But for the
most, our major concerns______
XXX: Does the Institute of Tropical Medicine interest you?
Di: They all do.
XXX: Ed and I spent a wonderful day when we met with the special troops-
the Red Berets in Pinar Del Rio. Does that interest you in this area?
DI: Ah, not any more, I would say that I characterize it as....not any
more than the whole capability of looking at the country in total. I
can’t really go on focusing on any one specific element just to see if
we have interest or not--we look at the country in total and its
capabilities.
XXX: So with the capabilities you are talking are the whole “Bio” ---.
DI: The whole bio capabilities, yes. What I was going to say in terms of
us looking at the capability is when that juncture occurs that I was
speaking about, that’s a very interesting point with BW because when a
country decides to go towards weaponization- you can see a scale of
capabilities it’s not indicative of legitimate commercial. Nothing Cuba
is doing at all--.A large scale of production and any relationships, any
concerns that they could just be just scaling off-- which would not be
consistent with the BWC.
XXX: Have you seen any of that?
DI: I can’t talk about that.
XXX: I am also told that during the first two years of the Clinton
administration, you guys prepared two reports on Cuba’s BW. Is that an
accurate statement?
DI: We prepared several reports, not on Cuba BW but on Cuba as part of
the world-- if you look at it. We were constantly preparing reports
accessing the general capabilities of again, many countries so to say
specifically, Cuba I can’t speak to that. When we look at lots of
countries and its fair to say that whether its positive or negative
again, I won’t characterize Cuba as having a BW program, but I’ll say
that we follow it and we do prepare reports and access what their
capabilities are.
XXX: And these are based on arrival of new information or request from
the consumers.
DI: Actually, both-either one it can come either way. For the most, our
shorter reports that we produce on any country on any capability, are
usually produced in response to new information because we want to get
it out on the street and into the community as soon possible. Any longer
reports produced would be in response from a consumer asking general
questions about capability.
XXX: The Russians have always kept Bio _prepara______? Any indication of
any joint training, any cooperation between bio____ and Cubans?
DI: We really can’t go in there at all unfortunately.
XXX: Right. Right.---East Germany-any other training? Anything current
that you look at. Biotech has got a deal with somebody.
DI: What I can really say in public is that Cuban researchers and the
infrastructure have a very good relationship with the world in general
and through any one of these relationships they could court a subset
within that context and they certainly do in many areas that one would
say would be absolutely legitimate. Because they have an interest in
many diseases and many processes.
XXX: Is Farm______?? one of their big export operations.
DI: It is an export operation.
XXX: What do they export?
DI: Basically agricultural products and certain types of
XXX: One of their higher ranking
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Point in tape where Montes gets involved in conversation:
XXX: Is there any indication that they are doing any defensive work?
DI We think there is some effort, but we don’t follow it that closely
and we are really not that interested- it’s not anything necessarily
formidable--- I mean in terms of capability, I mean when you look and
say, wow, that’s really great.
XXXX: Not wanting to monopolize your time--- but recently when down
there and talking to people- a lot of people who are looking at this and
wondering whether the military have to do anything in order to maintain
control-- because economics has continued to deteriorate.
Montes: The economy is not deteriorating.
XXX: ________?
Montes: It’s still expected to grow.
XXX: By how much?-- I mean, what I have been told is gone up 5, 6 or 7
percent but because of Hurricane Lily and other factors it has
essentially caught it up in a plateau in the last 6 months or so.
Montes: The growth is expected to be less than last year but it is still
going to be positive and should come out 4 or 5 percent --the sugar crop
will probably do very poor compared to last year.
XXX: You don’t see any problems?
Montes: Not at all!
XXXX: Just-- I mean-- several people who have talked to me who have been
down there who are usually pretty excited with the place and say that
nothing much is going to change, and have now come back lately to say
that they see a lot of indicators that people are upset----(the movement
of the Palestinos back into the provinces; a lot more blackouts
specially in the poor areas of Havana and the other cities), indicating
a continuing disaffection or a growing disaffection I should say.
Montes: I don’t know that I would characterize it as growing
disaffection--at the same time I don’t discount that there might be some
localized protests especially after blackouts are very prolonged as they
have been in the past and you know that localized protests were common
very early in the 90's when in fact that was happening when there was
much less food available. But the Cuban police have been completely able
to control all of that internal disorder and the military by and large
has not had to play a role -except for very very specific cases.
XXX: You don’t see that as any---
Montes: No, I certainly don’t see this as a harborture of any increasing
instability of the Cuban government. I really don’t see a major cause- I
don’t see Cubans flocking the shores in rafts-- You know, I think our
current immigration agreements to cover or basically blocks that.
XXX: What about Raul’s health?
Montes: Nothing new. I don’t know anything new about him.
XXX: Well, what do you know about him?
Montes: Um----that he has some chronic health problems but nothing that
necessarily indicates he’ll be dying very very soon.
XXX: We are hearing prostate cancer. From inside the island and from
government officials not from, you know-- Miami Cubans--but from
government officials--and obviously that’s nothing at his age that you
know...
Montes: Is uncommon...
XXX: Right. It could last forever. Ah--but nothing? And there is no
indication that he has any health problems or going to be critical in
the short term?
Montes: Not that I know of.
Windrem: Somebody else mentioned that there was certain tension in the
military over the last 6 months.
Montes: Over?
XXX: Over the possibility of succession if Raul you know, is as sick as
we have been told. You know, _______ v. Ibarra. Nothing?
Montes: Nothing.
XXX: ________? How would you characterize him?
Montes: As an individual?
XXX: As a leader--as a political structurer.
Montes: Interestingly enough he’s one of the few people that we’ve never
received derogatory comments about from Cubans (inside or outside). From
defectors or others alike, everybody speaks extremely highly of him, of
his professionalism, his personal integrity, he is a workaholic. Has
very high standards. In the work place very demanding but fair. He is an
essential military leader in a lot of ways. Really I have not heard any
negative about him.
XXX: Has his status changed in any way?
Montes: Not to my knowledge.
XXX: You said you watched Cuba very carefully in terms of BW, how would
you characterize the level of concern?
DI I guess I would characterize it as--let’s see how can I---how can I
phrase? The capability itself--again, is something that raises our
antenna. That’s about as much in which I can characterize it.
XXX: Would you characterize it as a realistic concern rather than
putting it on a scale?
DI: No, it is a realistic concern. Any capability like that with a sense
of unfriendliness, (in Cuba or any other country) we are going to be
looking at-- very closely.
XXX: All sorts of intelligence?
Di: Absolutely. We use every methodology we can to try to determine what
is happening in any particular country.
XXX: When we spoke to there about their special troops..
Montes: I was going to ask you about that.
XXX: morning actually?
Montes: Why did you detect some connection between the special troops
and BW?
XXX: Well, if you are going to be inserting something--I mean, if you
are going to be inserting something in some sort of “dooms-day”
scenario, I mean these guys are trained in this sort of capability. They
have two years of required English for example, which I thought was
interesting. They do a lot of insertion training, (by land, by sea and
by air). Where are you inserting people in any sort of crisis situation?
I mean, obviously, along the shores of an occupied territory which is,
you know, if it came to a US invasion yes, but I mean that capability
plus the fact that they are required to have two years of English
training leads you to think that well maybe there is some thinking about
insertion into the US after a crisis-- especially with the level of
ideology that you know- that they compute with. But I mean, we were
there for about four hours-the other day--yeah--Um--we did a piece of it
which was perfect--I am sure we I can get you- actually - a copy of it.
Sure.
Montes: Yes, ?????? I am aware of it
XXX: It was on NBC anyway, was it on Nightline--
XXX: ..But yeah- we did about 5 minutes--interviewed, Mesa, General
Mesa.
Montes: Oh- Aha, Ok--so you were talking to them--the military
personnel?
XXX: Um, --and we were out at LaNar ?? , we were out at the Paraguay
School which was...that’s where we were. They took us out to see some
training. Mainly, how would you describe what they were doing? (Speaking
to Rabel)
Rabel: Basically, it was a characterization of a show of their
capabilities to infiltrate behind blinds ? and disrupt ______ in command
areas as opposed to frontal attacks.
XXX: And then we got a full briefing for about one hour from them. I
guess from Colonel Ramirez laying out how many hours they spend doing,
you know this type of training and how many hours they do of this and
how long the process is in a three-year training and...
Montes: We didn’t watch this in the transcript is there any way we can
get the written transcript from the agency that produced it?
XXX: Yes, I can get you both. I’ve got a transcript of that- but I can
print out and give to you. And, if you are interested in the number of
hours of training, I mean, that was public to us, so I don’t have any
problems providing that to you if you are interested in that. Um,-- that
is the sort of thing that they were-- basically-- we asked and they
said, “yes”--We said we would like to see the special troops and they
said, “OK. And took us about a month or two to set up. Not much at all,
and General Mesa made himself available for a very short-----well first
of all they said they were not going to let him talk to us, and then....
Rabel: ... .I started talking to him and he kept on and kept on....
XXX: (Laughing) Typical military job-- he was all too willing to...
Actually we had two cameras on him. It was a two camera interview-- but
he’s a fairly pleasant guy. He speaks English, but not on camera to us.
It was interesting that when we were going up these stairs, and he had
to tell us which way to turn (and the interpreter was not there) and he
said, “go left”.
Rabel: (Laughing)...these guys always say- go left.
XXX: But yeah, they were very fair and helpful with us on it. I mean,
the point I wanted to make- and the point that we did in the story, and
they loved the story as a result was, We are ready. You guys invade, we
are ready!
Montes: Well, I kind of figured that --without discounting the
appropriateness of this kind of training for infiltration operations
abroad in other countries, the fact also remains that the Cubans think
that they might have to take some American troops on their own soil and
they would have to be behind them and realizing they are on their own
soil, they need to know English because the American troops might be on
their soil. Also because they would like to take advantage of any
contacts they might have with any US military personnel in particular,
you know, outside of Cuba. There are a lot of reasons for learning
English-- its’ really the international language to know.
XXX: Right. But that was a question that was raised. You know, these
guys do train in insertion techniques and ______ its valuable for them.
Insertion overseas________ for outside as well.
Montes: They talked to you about that?
XXX; Yes. A little bit. They did not talk to us about who they train.
Montes: Oh, too bad!
XXX: We tried but we did not get very far. But, very well kept facility.
Very well kept facility. They showed us their doonbugies with the...
Montes: Do you have that on film?
XXX: Yes.
Montes: Good.
XXX: They showed us their doonbugies, their Karate training- a little
bit of that hand- to-hand stuff. They went through obstacle courses for
us. And what else? They just showed us around.
Montes: Did they say anything about training their troops in riot
control?
XXX: No, But I have heard that they do. But, you know, it was not
discussed. But I’ve heard that. It’s a skill that they have. I have also
been told they are the last line of defense in terms of “praetorian
guards” for the President and the Vice-President and they have those
skills as well. And we noted when Fidel set up the anti-aircraft (VSU
23's) they were manned by Green Berets and you know that also suggested
to me that they have some sort of internal control protection or
praetorian guard function. But they were very professional, very
impressive. We showed Gen. Sheehan the tape.
Montes: Who would you compare them to? When you say that, who do you
compare them to--or would you use as your point of comparison?
I think that they are just as well trained as the Rangers or any special
operations forces. They seemed about the same, about the same age. But
they might not have the same technology. ______they said they have very
little of it but they don’t need it!
Montes: They could see in the dark?
XXX: That’s what they said, we don’t have much of it --but we don’t need
it! They were in very good shape. Very good shape. They were doing some
very impressive things physically and doing them with weights and with
incredible silence. And General Sheehan told us they were trained by the
Veitnamese ____.
You know that we have been in their tunnels-- I think you know.
Montes: Yes.
XXX: And the point of both of those two stories was the same thing, “You
come, and we are prepared.” And when we did both pieces, we thought it
showed them as paranoid, but it was a wonderful piece of propaganda,
because it showed that we are ready and we are prepared and we also have
the capabilities. But I am certainly willing to get you the notes on
that. They were very open. Gave us a briefing and answered any of our
questions. We had a set time when we had to be there. They did not show
us up close, but they have a lake near the facility that they use for
waterborne exercises. They had a couple of aircraft, mock aircraft. I
I mean, we did not see any helipcopters and apparently, it was at a
sight.
We talked to --what’s his name who was a---who trained with Che and then
defected to France and wrote a book recently? He was a traitor-- we
talked to him on camera but we talked to him about the location and he
basically said it was one of the locations and bacially said, I think
its one of the locations where they hold their RBM sights-- which would
make sense. It is a well tended piece of property, historically. And the
only thing that they ever said that we could not shoot that we have
asked for was Lourdes. Only thing. General Rodriguez DelPozo said, “I
would advise against that.” I said, we would just want to shoot from a
distance and he said, “I would advise against that.” I said why? And he
said, “I’d have to arrest you”. I know tourists have been shocked ? down
there. So I guess we took his advise--good advise. But I am told that if
you go to Ace Sanitorium you have an excellent view of Lourdes. Although
I have not seen those pictures yet. Ace Sanitorium is next door. But
that was the only facility where we have asked to go to where they have
said no. Then, we said, well I think we have to go to an airbase first,
but they said “No- this just can’t be arranged”.
DI That’s in part because the Russians are there and they still run the
operation.
XXX: They told us, “we are still under a treaty and our obligation is
security and supplies and security means we don’t let you take
pictures.” And you know, from what I can understand, Lourdes has less
importance than it used to. If you put a lot of communications and fiber
optic cables, then the United States is done. You guys are getting a lot
of critical stuff from the air. Is that an accurate...? That’s what I
have been told.
Montes: I have no comment. That is not our realm anyway. We focus on
Cuba.
XXX: Is there anything down there that you see in terms of the military
that strikes you as interesting lately?
Montes: Uh--Uh, frankly- no. What we have seen is somewhat of an
improvement I think and more activity in the part of the military in the
last 3 years but that’s concurrent with the improvement in the economy.
So we take them as ....___?
XXX: How is that?
Montes: More training, higher or bigger units training, obviously they
have more fuel so they can not expand More efforts to produce or build
military equipment-- rudimentary to sophisticated-- these are all
happening or coming to fruition in the last 3 years and I think because
they have more resources. Their interviews with you being more recent
efforts are efforts in that direction. To convince their own domestic
population and show the rest of the world that they retain own fighting
capabilities and they have been making very small come back steps.
XXX: But they don’t have the goals that they used to have?
Montes: Of returning to same capability that they had in the 1980's? No.
Not at all. They know that it is not realistic. They don’t have the
Soviet bloc financiers.
XXX: Are they buying new equipment?
Montes: No. No. Not that as far as I can tell.
XXX: So its a case of refurbishing what they have? What’s the status of
their Air Force?
Montes: Ask the Air Force Expert.
DI:?? We haven’t’ seen much change in the Air Force at all--we’ve’ seen
pretty much what we have seen in the last 5 years. A very small number
of aircraft, particularly fighters. We’ve seen them essentially conduct
the same standard kind of rotational maintenance but they clearly have
some spare parts and clearly have some capability for maintenance (they
are flying obviously) but there is not a lot of flying. They are not
getting a lot of flights out.
Rabel: Do you have an estimate of how many aircraft they could aloft if
they needed to at any given time?
DI: In conflict?
Rabel: Yes.
DI: No. It is very difficult to tell. I mean they could actually...
XXX: We were told that the numbers of planes that they have ready to go
could be counted on two hands.
Montes: These are the fighters?
XXX: Yes.
DI And you’re talking within the next 24 hours?
XXX: Yes.
DI: It’s probably pretty close. You might go a little bit more than
that. But that’s probably very close.
XXX: Two bases are basically capable- Holguin and San Antonio
DeLosBanos.
DI: Yes.
XXX: And Holguin is more centered. And in terms of other
capabilities--uh, when I flew in from Nassau (the last time that went
there) and I flew in on a an old Antenoff that had been converted to a
Gaviota (the kind of flight where you spend most of your time wondering
who will speaking at your memorial service). Yeah. And are there are a
lot of those transport planes now being put into services?
DI: Yes, they actually have quite a few of those transporter aircrafts
flying and some of them are being used as Gaviotas. The same goes for
helicopters as well.
XXX: For tourism.
DI: So we see, in that case, there’s more, you can almost say, more dual
use again. Because they have more capabilities to use those so there’s
more as a percentage.
XXX: And the MIG 23 is the work horse of what they’ve got in terms of
fighters?
DI: Yes and the MIG 29's.
XXX: And how many do they have?
DI: They have, they probably...if they had to get them up within the
next 24 to 48 hours....they probably couldn’t get more than 3 up.
Windrem: So they have six total?
Di: No, they have.....Do you know how many they have? (Asking his staff)
Montes: In round numbers.
DI: More than six and less than ten.
(Laugh, Laugh)
XXX: These are the none numbers?
DI No its a round number.
Rabel: Well they must have gotten some more in the last two years.
DI: Make it six initially. It may have included trainers.
XXX: Right. Right. And those are capable?
DI: They are. Nice capability.
XXX: Are they are all in San Antonio?
DI: Yes.
Windem: Or are there also at Holguin?
Di: Holguin is MIGS 23's and MIGS 21's. I actually don’t remember off
hand--there’s not very many.
XXX: What did they use to shoot down the Cessna’s?
DI: MIG 29 Folcrum.
XXX: And in terms of their radar capabilities--are they in any level--I
mean, I know that they had been severely diminished.
DI: Are you talking ground?
XXX: Yes.
DI: They certainly do not have the numbers and the same kind of coverage
that they had say 10 years ago. But they had an extreme amount of
overlapping coverage at that point in time. They can still provide
adequate coverage-- Island wide. I don’t know if they actually 24 hours
a day make sure the entire island is covered. If they needed to they
could.
XXX: Their interest in talking to US military types and they have been
in ____and in phone conversations and other places. Someone said to me,
maybe they are doing this aside from making contacts, maybe they are
looking for a new professional standard to model their military on-- and
the US standard is obviously a good one. Does that make sense to you?
Montes: I don’t see it as one of their motivating factors behind their
desire to contact the US.
XXX: What is their motivating factors?
Montes: The biggest one is political. They want to do everything they
can to encourage the US military to oppose the current US policy towards
Cuba. They want to build a political support in the US government for a
change of policy.
XXX: They loved it when we had Sheehan on camera saying, “Cuba is not a
threat to the United States.” I mean, they took that and ran with it.
Montes: But they like to build on that.
Rabel: We had an hour scheduled and I have time--
XXX: We don’t have much--
Rabel: I just don’t want these folks to feel they are trapped.
XXX: Ok. The tunnels---we were in the tunnels in June of 95, and then
last June (96) everyone was talking about: building more tunnels; deeper
tunnels; we have to do this; this is subsequent to the shoot down. Is
there any indication that they have been doing that?
Montes: Uh- yes, there are indications that they continue to build
tunnels.
XXX: Deeper?
Montes: I don’t have any information no, that- they are building them
deeper. But that’s not to say they aren’t.
XXX: Is the pace the same?
Montes: I don’t know, I really don’t know. I don’t have enough
information.
XXX: Has there been any other analysis of the shoot down that would
indicate that on that particular day that the order came directly from
Fidel or Raul because continuously, they have given us the impression
that it was their defense officer who had standing instructions to order
the shoot down. But do you know anything more now about what happened?
Montes: That is our understanding as well. That this was a standing
order -this was a decision which had been made weeks before.
XXX: A standing order?
Montes: Right, a standing order.
XXX: And nobody called Fidel and said, “Ok their out there....
Montes: Not as far as I know.
XXX: Is the air Marshall still around?
Montes: The air Marshall?
XXX: The person who ordered the shoot down on that particular day.
Montes: We have had no indication of any changes in command whatsoever,
to the contrary.
XXX: What’s the contrary?
Montes: That the pilots themselves were highly praised and glorified
within the military for what they had done and that the entire chain
used congratulatory comments.
XXX: So there was only one--except---
Montes: Well, some instances of mistakes that might have been made. You
know, technically/ tactically. But not the final outcome. The final
outcome was much desired, much welcome by the higher military.
XXX: We were amazed when we were done there cause we flew in on morning
after the shoot down that they did not have, the political types did not
have, any sort of coordinated strategy or coordinated response. I mean
we had breakfast with Alarcon that Tuesday morning. That Tuesday
morning, and it was like--we kept waiting for them to say-- well off
course we were able to determine that the planes were headed from Playa
Baracoa and you know, Fidel was there or something. You know, some
justification and there just wasn’t anything of any--you know..
Montes: I’m just saying that the military knew about this and they knew
about it ahead of time-- and they knew this was coming down ahead of
time. This was a military operation that they planned and it wasn’t
quite examinated by the political elite.
XXX: So what was the tactical mistake?
Montes: Problems with equipment, mistakes primarily made by equipment,
they did not function as it was expected to function. Pieces of
equipment that did not function as it was expected to function.
XXX: So on the actual report it was technical (subheadings). And they
knew because of Roque?
Montes: That’s what we suspect- in part. In part.
XXX: We had a very funny experience with Roque. He took out his little
diary or phone book and he was showing us he that had the names of the
FBI agent, you know, and the cell phone number to show me that he had
made contacts with the FBI agent and then he was showing it to Ed and
then he dropped it and when he dropped it we noted that there was not
another entry in the entire book so this must have been a very important
source because it was the only source. Everything was very well printed
in that one page.
Montes: Did he tell you that he had been working for the Cuban
Government from the beginning--that when he defected he was already a
spy for the Cuban government? What did he say?
XXX: No, No. He said that he had changed his mind.
Montes: Changed his mind.
XXX: We interviewed him and I think we gave it to our Miami affiliates
because it was it was after. We interviewed him the next day--we were
the second in line which made our bosses not happy. Actually, Cuban T.V.
interviewed him first......but he was----he’s a very good actor,
obvious. But he did not---there was actually one point where we did
catch him on something but I can’t remember what it was. It was
something where it was--it was something interesting. He sort of slipped
at one point. It was quite obvious I thought that he was who he was--
and the manner in which it was planned to get the photographs and
videotapes of him which were already in Cuba-that would be the other
thing that struck me---the videotapes that were shot of him buzzing
Havana were on Cuban television you know, simultaneously and the
photographs of him with Jorge Mas and you know all that other stuff was
there already. He left on Thursday night I think--
Rabel: So that all seemed very well planned, but politically, the
structure did not seem to have their act together.
Montes: Well, it was supposed to be a big secret operation they could
not tell lots of people.
XXX: But Raul must have known-and if Raul knows then Fidel knows.
Montes: Sure, but that doesn’t mean that the rest of the political
establishment knew.
XXX: It was a standing order--they knew it was a standing order right?
Montes: Who knew the standing order?
XXX: Raul?
Montes: Sure- Fidel gave it-Raul off course.
XXX: But in terms of calling Fidel before the order was actually
executed?
Montes: I seriously doubt it. I think all he did was tell him--first of
all. But they have a standing order.
xxx: But the Cessnas came in once and then they left and then they came
back--and Roque had already been in town too as well.
Montes: But since this was an event that the Cuban military knew in
advance--several days in advance-and before, they had probably prepped
Fidel and Raul, briefed them, they gave the OK and from then on it was
in the lower ranking military personnel’s hands at the air base. But at
the time within minutes before they actually shot down, did they call
Fidel and ask for permission to shoot them down at the moment? No.
XXX: The standing order would have been. And that’s always been your
best guess? Has that changed at all since last year?
Montes: No.
Windrem: It’s been consistent throughout. There’s no other information?
Montes: No, it was a standing order.
XXX: Right. Right. And that there may have been briefings a couple of
days before? They knew several days before. He left on Thursday
afternoon- is the last time his wife saw him.
Montes: It appears that that would have been probable.
XXX: What’s happened to him-do you know what has happened to Roque?
Montes: We don’t know.
? We have time for one more question.
Montes: I just want to ask you a question. Why are the cubans watching
this campaign of accusations against the US for biological warfare. I
think it falls into the same category as this recent press conference
that the Cubans have had. They are very determined to exploit what they
see as the opposition of the rest of the world to US policy and I think
the more hostile, and the more aggressive they can portray US policy
towards Cuba, the more they can generate sympathy for Cuba on the part
of other countries and opposition by other countries to US policy.
XXX: Has there been problems with Spain? Made them think more in these
terms?
Montes: That they need to work harder with other countries and
generating.....??? Very possibly. |
|
|
|
|
|
INFOCUBA
